Gelareh Pour

Photo of Gelareh Pour
Image description: Photo of Gelareh Pour facing the camera straight on with eyes looking slightly to the left. Gelareh is holding a Kamancheh, wearing a floral blazer with bright reds, oranges, greens and whites, as well as patterned pants, which stand out against a bright white background. She has an earthly skin tone, dark brown shoulder length hair with a slight wave and fringe, and has on red lipstick and strong eyeliner.

Iranian born, Persian Kamancheh and Qeychak player, singer, songwriter and Choir director Gelareh Pour – now based in Ballarat on Wadawurrung Country – studied her BA at the Art University of Tehran’s conservatorium and her Masters of Ethnomusicology at The University of Melbourne. Her flexibility and interest in different cultures and genres sees her working across a variety of music scenes, including, improvised, experimental, cross-cultural, classical, electronic and many more.

In this interview Gelareh discusses how space, renovations, audiences and performing with your partner impacts music making, the exclusive nature of education in music and music therapy and how to fix it, the problems with music categorisation based on “culture” and how curating needs to be multicultural not just on Harmony Day or Refugee Week, and that art made for, and presented to, other artists only is not enough, plus more!

Gelareh Pour interviewed by Thembi Soddell – November 17, 2021

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Gelareh Pour – I am Gelareh Pour. I live in Ballarat, just lately moved here from Melbourne and, uh, just trying to figure out what it’s like to live here, basically. Um, I’m musician and a graphic designer and a photographer, trying to write in Persian lately and reading a lot and yeah, and I am a gardener as well, so yeah. I love creating and growing. So anything that has that in it, I’m in!

Thembi Soddell – How long have you actually been in Ballarat for?

GP – We moved here in February, 2021. So a less than a year. Yeah. 

TS – What inspired the move there from Melbourne? 

GP – Buying a house. 

TS – That’s, yep, the exact reason I moved to Clunes.

GP – It was affordable [laughs]. Uh, also we’ve been gigging here since 2013 through Adam Simmons, who started a Festival of Slow Music. Um, and so that was a really lovely introduction to Ballarat and the art community of here. And then since then, we’ve been coming back to Ballarat a lot, playing music with different bands. And, um, whenever we had a tour, we usually put in Ballarat as well. Um, we have lots of creative friends here, so that was very encouraging to come here. Although after moving here, you know, when you move somewhere, everything is different. Like you’re not a tourist anymore. So you start seeing things that you may not like [Thembi laughs], I’m really happy that you’re very close to Melbourne, but, um, sometimes I get sick of the travel. But it’s fine. I love the nature here and how quiet it is and the community’s very, you know, friendly and powerful. So yeah, I think that that’s the main thing.

TS – I had similar feeling about moving to Clunes. Like it’s really beautiful here. There’s a nice community of people, but I miss Melbourne quite a lot in some ways like the, you know, accessing gigs and audiences and things like that. It’s just a lot harder out here because there’s the added strain of travel and, you know, the pay doesn’t change. So like you’ve got extra to pay for travel, but you don’t necessarily have extra that you’re getting paid for the gigs, which is hard [laughs].

GP – Yeah, it is not as, um, progressive and flexible as Melbourne when it comes to audience here. And, uh, especially for me when it comes to cross-cultural and intercultural sort of art that I do, it is not that much known here. And it’s such a, it’s always like something that they can’t sometimes even digest or, you know, understand what it is. Um, so that is, yeah, that is another thing. I think you, me, similar maybe, more like myself there, a bit more colour and more, uh, yeah, cross like what modern Australia is basically um, is missing when you come out of Melbourne, unfortunately. Um, but I’m hoping because there’s a lot of people moving now and because of COVID, many people just live in big towns. So maybe that just resolves a little bit, but like, we have to see, I know. Um, yeah.  

TS – Yeah. I grew up in, uh, Bendigo, which do you know Bendigo or have been there? Actually you’ve performed there, haven’t you?

GP – Yes, yeah.

TS – Um, yeah, and like, I was very desperate to get out as soon as possible. So as soon as I was 17 and finished school, I like, you know, left for Melbourne for like that specific reason of not really having like, um, so many open minded sort of, or audiences that were open to what it was that I was doing, or actually I wasn’t even doing it much then I just wanted to meet people who had similar interests. And, um, yeah, I don’t think I could have created a career in Bendigo. But, um, yeah, so it’s interesting now that I’ve moved back to a much smaller town and, it’s, it is really challenging to keep my practice going, even though I’m probably doing more than I used to, but yeah. Um… 

GP – Yeah, it is, it is the place that doesn’t matter anymore too though. Like you, when we think about it, maybe it is the thing that being exposed and inspired that we are missing. Otherwise being in Melbourne or Clunes or Ballarat or Bendigo is not going to stop us for being creatives, but, um. And the audience is accessible through internet and so many other ways these days, which is, um, not that hard, like everyone’s very exposed, but just, you know, I think it’s, that’s called the general culture of the town that doesn’t catch you the way Melbourne does. It doesn’t matter where you’re from. It’s just very comfortable. Um, yeah. 

TS – Yeah. I always felt like a freak in Bendigo and in Melbourne, I guess I met a whole bunch of other freaks, so that was great. But yeah, it is [Gelareh says “it is”] sorry you go….

GP – I mean, it is a little bit too much too sometimes, you know, that’s one, to be honest, that’s one of the reasons I ran away from Melbourne. I was a bit overwhelmed. It’s sometimes, it is a lot happening in Melbourne, and you sometimes need a break. And in places like that, because all your friends and all your network is keep pushing and pushing, it’s just like this culture of pushing and being overwhelmed to keep doing, doing, doing. And sometimes we just end up being more about quantity, than not even quality, then just looking into yourself and doing some self-development and knowing what exactly you want. So like you jumped in this ocean and you just going with the flow and trying to swim through and catch up with others. Um, so maybe this on and off is a good thing. I don’t know, I’m still really new. 

TS – I mean, I agree with that a lot. I’m very much interested in working slowly and deeply than I am in just churning out stuff over and over. Like I kind of am still working on very similar pieces that I have, I created years ago just because I like to dig deeper. And um, so do you feel like in your own practice, that’s something you really value is digging deep into the ideas or the sounds or music or, yeah?

GP – Well, in my own practice, we started doing a lot of improvisations. Like even when I do solo things, it’s a lot about the place and improvisations and people. So sometimes it’s nice to be in a new place because it’s new inspiration. Um, but digging deep, um, I usually don’t sit on works for too long. I like to move forward, but it doesn’t mean that I’m not gonna dig deep and work on them. It means I just don’t sit on it for too long. I just feel if I, for example, don’t publish this piece of music, I can’t go forward because I’m stuck with it and I still want to work on it. And, um, if I think I can develop this better, I just do a second version of it, and I kind of have a, I just have this history for myself to look back to. This is an idea that my partner, especially Brian, that put in my head and he does that a lot. It’s just, can you look at his records, his collection is the history of his growth, which is really nice. Like there are things that you look into and you’re like, what the hell? I can’t believe I was into playing something like that or recording something like that. But this is where I was back then.

GP – And this is what he told me. And I really agree with it. I think it’s, um, this is the progress. That’s how you progress. And that’s how you allow yourself to, you know, try things out and not be fearful and let yourself grow and try things out, which is, um, that I really like. But sometimes that, uh, amount of gigs that we were playing in and we were booked for in Melbourne, just because it is how it is. You just find that, you know, your rehearsal time is on the stage because you don’t have any other time. Because, you know, going on stage is not just going on stage, so much admin behind it. So much, so many other things to do. At the same time, as musicians, we know we are not rock stars. There are other ways to pay our bills. It’s not the money we make on the stage. So a lot of the time is spent to make that money to be able to practise your art in a way you value it and you like to do it. Um, so yeah, it, I don’t know if I answered your question, but it’s, um, I think it’s just, I think that pace is better at the moment it’s going to get nuts again next year, but maybe we all needed this. [laughs]  I dunno.

TS – I needed the break. Definitely. But, um, yeah. Uh, I’m interested in what you said there. Like, I think it’s a really beautiful idea, this thing of like, you can see the history of growth from project to project instead of getting too focused on the single thing. And, you know, I mean, I’ve listened to your work and I think there’s a beautiful depth to everything that I’ve heard so far. So it’s not like that isn’t in the music itself, if that makes sense? Um, but do you feel like the actual publishing or presenting, or like having audience engagement is important to that growth? 

GP – Um, it is. And the reason is it is project-based for me. Like I, at the moment I play in different things, which are one off or sometimes, but there are two bands that I play in all the time and one is Garden and one is Zöj. So Garden is the comp…, the composition for that starts from improvisations between four musicians. Um, and then it will become a song. So when we go on stage, I know every time you even play a composed song, it is different, but it is composed. So, you know, what’s happening, you know, the next nok. There are some improvised bits in the middle, but they are very planned too. Um, but when it comes to, you know, speaking about people and place, and the influence, influence of them into your music, it comes to Zöj, which the duet, it’s very experimental and modern and, uh, it is whatever it at that that time where you are, who is sitting there. So that’s why even when, when we reco… we haven’t even been able to capture and record this band yet, um, because of the nature of it. So any recordings we’ve had was from the radio or from our live recordings. Um, we are going to record it at Melbourne Recital Centre, but it’s live again. Because the place is important. And even the two guys who are going to work with us on that day are going to become our audience and, uh, have an effect on what we play. So, you know, there are different angles to my practice and in different projects, I look into things differently, but when it comes to those experimental and improvisation sort of sets, that’s where you really connect and deeply look into yourself and what you really want out of your practice and connect with your partner, Brian, that Brian O’Dwyer, who’s the drummer and in Zöj, it’s a duet that we play together. So it’s just the connection we can make through this duet. It’s just in a whole different level. So yeah, there’s a lot of growth, I think. And it’s funny, the growth is just up and down. Sometimes it’s so bad, and sometimes you’re like, ah there it is, which is honestly, sometimes we lose each other and then, and then wecome back. It’s, it’s very interesting. 

TS – Um, it’s, it’s, it’s really interesting when you say, because that’s with your partner, um, and the way you’re describing that thing of like losing each other and coming back and connecting also feels like a really nice way of describing, a rela… like an intimate relationship too, which I don’t know if that influences…

GP – Because it is

TS – Yeah 

GP – There’s no way that it doesn’t, uh, it is, music is something that holds us together and keeps us together, it is how we met. And it is what that is keeping us together. Um, and it’s also influenced by all the ups and downs of a life and relationship. Like, we bought a house, and really just in the middle of renovating everything, this is, this is all they, yeah. These are all reflected in the music we play. And there’s no way you can’t, it’s just the mirror. I think Zöj is a mirror of us, Brian and I, and it’s just, it is what we are, and it is what’s happening around us. So that’s the why we can never really put it in any box 

TS – Yeah. It’s kind of amazing. I mean, one of my favourite things about, um, art and like – you know, a lot of my friends create art and music, it’s that I feel like I get to know them so well through their work. And it’s just another way of like, yeah. Cause I agree that it’s often a mirror and yeah, I feel like I can know a lot about a person through their music and I had never thought of that so much in the context of a relationship and yeah. Do you feel like renovating has like changed the way that the music sounds together? Because I feel like renovating is just one of those things that’s so stressful and always puts strains on relationships. [ laughs].

GP – Mm. So the lucky thing for us is we started, like, our relationship started exactly when we started working together and it’s not like we knew each other a lot before, or we stayed as colleagues a lot after we met. So like they all started together, so the relationship started with the working culture as cooperating and just doing things together. Uh, so, and that, that reflects in so many different levels of life, that music is only one of it, um, about the renovation. So a very simple example of it, is that how we were just changing our garage, which is under our house, into our studio and the process of change, making that into our studio has been quite interesting. And the problems we’ve been dealing with and things we didn’t know about this house and how they’ve been affecting like our house and our studio and the things we needed in that still. 

GP – Like we need it to be very dry, but the wall in the studio is moist and is getting water inside. And, uh, after spending tons of money on it we realise, oh my God, like, we actually need to spend like another 15k to just fix this problem. Um, but we say, okay, we’ve done all this, we just don’t sit on that half of the room which is a bit moist and we sit on this half and it’s going to sound different. Like we moved there a month ago from upstairs and it’s been sounding very different, it sounds louder. I can hear Bryan so much better now. And, um, and that has affected the way we play because we’ve never been in this sort of room, isolated to practice. It’s been a room in the house, usually, you know? So, um, you know, this is, this is the physical fact of renovation that has affected, um, at the same time, all these financial things that pushes us around to get to what we want. It’s, um, so yeah, I think it’s a gateway and also it’s just frustrating. It’s just everything. Yeah. 

TS – I mean, renovations, nightmare, particularly moisture, which this area is so, um, it’s such a big problem around here and you never expect things are gonna cost as much as they do, but, um, yeah, I, what are the actual changes you’ve identified in the music, like, is it a change to the sound of the music, or is it a change to the way you feel while performing? Or… I guess those are linked as well 

GP – Before starting to play downstairs, our music’s been a bit safe I reckon, for a little while, especially during the pandemic. And that comes from the ways that we could play, which was a lot, a lot of online things and recorded things that the experience of being in a room was impossible for your audience. So you always had to be conscious of the level and the volume and the texture and the amount of layers you add. Because, you know, in the recordings, especially like, we, this is not gonna translate. And it’s just gonna sound like a mess. So you just get to the point of what’s, what’s going to sound good that I feel good about. And also it’s going to feel good to hear through basically low quality speakers of a phone or a computer. Um, so passing the pandemic, um, and moving downstairs, I feel we just started getting back to being a little bit selfless and free.  

GP – And louder. Um, more layered, rhythmic and, uh, more technical. It’s just another thing that we’re adding to the sort of the composition of the whole picture that Zöj draws in one sitting, um, maybe more dynamic is going to be added to our performances. Um, but again, as you go with stuff like this, you just keep learning about the process of everything. Like when it comes to recording, you know, the process is different from a live performance in these sort of setups because they’re improvised. And you always want to give yourself more room to be able to develop later when it comes to recording. But then when it’s live, you’re like, you know what? This is the time I have and it’s passing and in this person, a life is passing and we need to hit it right now. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I think these are the kind of effects that I can see that Zöj has got through this COVID renovation, moving to Ballarat. 

TS – It actually sounds pretty interesting and quite exciting to be able to have this new element starting to emerge. 

GP – It’s interesting for me to talk about it because as you’re asking me these questions, I keep thinking about it. It’s not something that, you know, it’s… there are things that you kind of figure out while you’re solving these sort of questions and you just never sit with yourself and think, okay, like what effect has this had on me? But then, uh, I appreciate your question because it makes me realise, ah, this is what’s happening actually, when I look back and it can help us grow even  more when we are kind of aware of it.

TS – Yeah. I think the external influences are such an interesting topic when it comes to the creation of artwork, I think, um. Which also makes me curious to ask about like, uh, you know, you mentioned a difference between Ballarat audiences and Melbourne audiences and what is the change like? Do you feel there’s a change in the way you perform then, when you’re maybe performing to Ballarat or other regional places? 

GP – To be honest, what I’m saying about the audience is not about that audience, which is in the room. So the audience who are in the room in the regional area are the most, I think, amazing audience, like the connection you can have with these people, even though like, even if they have travelled from Melbourne to see you in regional, the connection is different. It is, there is a wall that is fallen and the connection is there. There’s no reason to try. Um, they’re completely open. Their hearts, their hearts are in their hands and their ears are open and they’re just sitting there. But this is a little, a little bit about the audiences you don’t have in regional areas.

GP – How much less they are, how limited is their age range, um, when it comes to audience in regional areas. So they are really high quality. The ones who are in the room with you. But the rest of them, you might be really, really far away from being able to have them in the room with you. That is the problem with the regional areas. Otherwise the existing audience are the best you can ask for. I love that. Like, I always love playing in regional areas. When it goes to Melbourne, as I said, it’s just too much happening, so much expectations, too, too much, um, critics and understanding of what’s happening. Basically, it’s like, when you don’t know about a movie and you go to the cinema and you openly sit there with no judgments and watch it, or you read all the critiques about it and they sit down and watch it. That’s the difference between Melbourne and regional basically, yeah. It’s a bit hard. Um, it’s, it’s more people who are potential to be your audience, but they’re not easy listeners.

TS – Yeah, I think, so, my experience moving from Bendigo to Melbourne, just as an audience member, like a punter at pubs seeing bands and stuff, I was really shocked when I got to Melbourne and everyone just kind of stood around nodding their head, like seriously. Whereas in Bendigo we’d all be up the front, like dancing around and screaming and like, just, yeah. And so after a few years of Melbourne, I like, you know, calmed down a bit and started becoming more like, you know, dressed in black and nodding my head at the back, instead of like wearing bright pink and dancing at the front of the stage, which is kind of like, yeah. Was an interesting change for me. Um, so I like the way you’ve just said yeah, it’s like a wall’s down, which is exactly what it was like. And I think because in regional locations you’re just starving for new and interesting music if you’re, like, curious about it. 

TS – Um, but I’m also interested in what you said about like, not being able to get audiences in the room. Have you thought about like ways of, ‘cause that relates to this idea of access that I’ve been thinking about, which is that same question of how do I, um, reach more audience members or get more people in the room? Uh, cause I think there’s a lot of people who are interested, but maybe don’t feel welcome or don’t feel like they understand like, you know, people who say to me, I don’t really get it. And it’s like, there’s actually nothing to get. It’s just an experience. 

GP – [laughs,] Exactly!

[Thembi laughs]

GP – What does that mean? Nothing. Just enjoy. It’s not meant to have a meaning. Uh, yeah. It’s just like many when we, when I sing in Persian, I usually don’t provide the translation, it’s just another layer of music. If you understand, lucky you, but if you don’t, you’re not missing out. You’re actually getting another angle that the person who understands what I’m singing won’t get. Uh, so we are equally experiencing the same amount of excitement and input, but they’re different, which is amazing. Um, so when it comes to how to attract these people, it is little different for me because, um, as I said, because of being diasporic and cross-cultural in modern Australia, it brings that another layer of, ‘Oh, what is this instrument? Oh, is this a music I can like… ah, I don’t understand what she’s singing, so does that mean I cannot even be in that room or enjoy that music? 

GP – Um, as you said, like what, I don’t know if I get it, [laughs] it’s just, uh, and that, that goes to the way, uh, that goes back to the education system. Basically the way we look into, uh, immigrants, the way we look into others, people of, stupid term, people of colour. Culture. What are these words? How can we call someone who comes from another place and creates a piece of work, how can we call their work ‘culture’? ‘Cultural’? Or how can we call it ‘world music’? What are we then? Aren’t we on the world, like, aren’t we in this world? It’s, um, multicultural.

GP – It’s just God, like all these, all the separations, basically not involving, uh, immigrants who are around 50% of the population of Australia, around 50% of the population of Australia is an immigrant or their parents have been. So currently, um, so excuse me, like how can you, how can you divide this? How can you say, um, oh, this is world music. Oh, this multicultural, and now this is experimental and now this is like, Western European. Like, this is music. This is music in Australia. And everyone is welcome to come and sit and see it. There’s no need for exhibiting people who hold an instrument that you don’t know, music that comes out of my Kamancheh is the same music that can come out of the piano, the melody and texture, and the sound is different. The origin is different, but it’s music and you can enjoy it. Um, so I, I see that as a educational, um, problem, even when it comes to our organisations and music schools, um, people who don’t play guitar or piano are not accepted in many, many majors of music. 

TS – Oh really? I didn’t know that. Wow. 

GP – Like I can not, I can not be enrolled in composition, um, course in a university, if I only hold my Kamancheh, even though I have the knowledge of composing. Um, or if, if I want to become a music therapist, I need to be able to play guitar or piano. I don’t know what other instruments, but definitely not Kamancheh. And I know people who wanted to become music therapists and they ended up going learning piano in the age of 40, for example, to be able to become a music therapist, because you are saying music therapy and you don’t know what music is. This is your requirement to enter. And honestly, it’s just what can fit on a paper and make sense, maybe it had made sense, I dunno how many years ago, but it doesn’t make any sense today anymore. 

GP – Um, so all I’m trying to say is we are all of us, doesn’t matter where we’re from, where we were born, who our parents are. We are assets of this country and we’re contributing to this country every day. Um, it doesn’t matter what we do, where we’re from. We are all in the same box. And, um, as long as we are not, we’ll be discriminated, we’ll be separated. We won’t be involved. Um, and that’s where we can’t progress. Like as a cross-cultural, don’t even like the cross-cultural word, inter-culture. I don’t know what to call it, as a musician who is holding an instrument, which is not known for most people in Australia. I can only progress to the certain level. And if I am exhibited in a specific mainstream, it is just to tick the box for funding for that organisation. It’s dark, it’s harsh. It is what it is. 

TS – And so do you think that, um, or like ways for that to change or like, what would you like to see to make that change? Is it around terms around education, um, curating, like categories, these are sort of the things I’m hearing?

GP – Um, it is around education. It is around, um, basically not categorising and not putting, um, people in different, um, you know, don’t put, uh, how can I say it, like explanation or name on things? Just, um, you know, like when, for example, like in Harmony Day, which is a harmony week, you see all these musicians from different parts of the world, exhibited on different, different stages and different venues, people of other cultures, they come and they celebrate and see these people, but that disappears ‘till next year. On your refugee week, you can again see these musicians appearing, but what about every other day, um, why when we are putting an assemble together, we don’t look into, okay, what is available? What are the assets before thinking, ah, this ensemble fits in this category because this is a known category we know of. So we are looking for a guitarist and this and violinists and this and that. 

GP – So, um, all I’m trying to say is exactly, as you mentioned, putting people in categories, trying to exactly say what they are when we don’t know exactly what they are, is stopping these people from being known, to being, to be growing, to meet their potential and to be seen to their potential audience. We cannot expect a little kid in Ballarat without seeing someone freely speaking Persian and or playing Persian music, um, to be, you know, not to be exposed… If he’s not exposed to that, how can we expect him to like it? And if, um, for example, if I tell this kid, oh, okay, this is pasta. And this sushi. All right, these are not from this country. When you want to eat them, you need to think about where they’re coming from. So are you going to like it? No. We just put the pasta on the table and are like, there you go. 

GP – The kid might have been eating pasta for years before knowing where it comes from. Um, so it’s the same with music. Just play it. Basically. When you go to shopping centre, don’t play garbage. There’s so much music. Or when you make ads on Australian TV just look what’s available. Like there is so much, but you don’t use it. And this doesn’t even only come to being from, uh, other cultures and kind of having diasporic music here, it’s about every genre. And, um, I am anti-genre, but you know, if you want to explain it. Well, anyone who does valuable music and work, um, we need to showcase that in a larger scale. So yeah. So our problem is fundamental. It is coming from not, not exactly knowing what music is. Like, did you watch the music they play in, in AFL in Perth. Like, bloody hell.

TS – I don’t know. I don’t really engage with AFL. What did they play?

GP – I always, I watch the final usually. So I have no idea what it’s about. I just watch and I keep asking Brian what happened. I like the excitement. I think when the whole majority of one place, people of one place do something, I like to do it too, because, um, I like to be involved. I don’t want to, yeah, I’m not living here thinking I’m someone else. I’m in this place, you know, um, I didn’t know who it was. I know many people knew him, but, uh, that’s ignorant of me not even looking. But it was so bad, I didn’t want to look like I couldn’t, but I was shocked because after two years of COVID, in that situation you have the AFL running and you’re spending all this money for this musician coming on the stage, the industry’s broken. You do not spend time seeing who I can bring to represent this country in a sport that I am proud of as a country. So, it’s I have no whoops 

TS – So you feel like that it won’t change or do you feel like it is potentially changing or? 

GP – I don’t know. It’s like asking is racism gonna stop here? 

TS – That’s true. [Laughs] That’s a really, yeah…

GP – Yeah what can I say. It’s actually, it’s been progress during the COVID because people are more angry. And if they see someone who doesn’t look like them, that’s their first reaction to be racist. If the guy looks like them, they just be angry. So, um, I don’t know. I have no idea. We try, we never stop trying. We make music with people all around. There are so many people that I know about, they have great views, they’re open, they’re open-minded, but they don’t have the power. That’s the problem. 

TS – Yeah. This is a very good point, but you know, we all have a little bit of power. So like, I like to think about what are the small places that I have power and can I make little shifts within that sphere? Um, but you know…

GP – Of course, we never stop. And even this conversation is something that can make changes and it is changing us. Both of us. Even when I say these things, I will feel different and I will say different things. It makes me maybe based on what I, you know, we keep changing. I never say what I say today is exactly correct. Just what I think and what I feel today. But, um, I just hope things get better for everyone. And, uh, art team is being, in a good level, is being exposed to the public and not only exposed to artists, art for artists is not good. It’s not enough. 

TS – Yeah. I agree so much with that sentiment. And it’s one of the things I love about living regionally, is I feel like I’m reaching different audiences that I just wouldn’t in Melbourne. And there’s a lot of pleasure in that. Like, there’s pleasure for me in seeing like the responses, because I mean, yeah. I just feel like as a creator you’re actually creating for other people, so to see those responses is, um, that’s part of the growth of the practice as well. But yeah, I’m just, I’m mindful of the time and I don’t want to take up too much of your time. Um, but I, is there anything else you kind of would love to be able to just say? Um, yeah…? 
GP – No, I’m just hoping, I’m just hoping that I wasn’t too negative. About Um, um, yeah, that’s all.

TS – I don’t think… Sorry. I’m like, cutting you off and talking over you but yeah, but I was gonna say, I don’t think it was too negative at all. It’s like, yeah. I think it’s really helpful and, um, interesting and important discussion. So yeah.

GP – Yeah, no there is not, not much to say, just, um, um, I appreciate what you’re doing and I hope, um, we play music together one day and, uh, I hope we all will get to experience, um, playing music and listening to each other and experiencing what it is like to have lots of different listening backgrounds and experiences in life and creating new music, which is, uh, something we always say it is from more than one place. And, uh, and it keeps changing and progressing. And I hope we get a chance to be, you know, uh, to be exposed to whoever has a heart to hear good music. And hopefully, one day we can change somebody’s mind, um, about so many negative things with the beauty of creativity and art, um, and make, you know, make a better place. That’s all. That’s what that’s all we’re trying to do, basically. Um, yeah. Thank you so much, that was a very enjoyable conversation.